Barry Lynn talks Hobby Lobby on Point of Inquiry (Pt 3)

Q::Companies are legal fictions in that they are not natural persons, like humans.  It is a convention as to which rights they have and which rights they don't relative to person-hood.  What is the legal argument for why a company should have the tight to speech but not a right to vote?

In his response Lynn highlight a very important point:  ",,,we allow people in business to set up a corporation for the purpose of getting certain legal rights and avoiding certain legal responsibilities." 

Lynn explains this by use of a slip and fall lawsuit.  In general, if you are set up as a company and your company is sued, it is not the individual owner(s) as such that are being sued but the company (corporation) they set themselves up as to protect themselves.  [In other words direct personal responsibility is removed from the mix.]

Lynn continues, "Now when it becomes convenient for those same people who set up a corporation (for their benefit) to now all the sudden want to talk about their INDIVIDUAL rights as the guy who runs the company; they really want to have it both ways."

Basically what Lynn is saying, they want corporate protections (when convenient for them) and to be able to use those protection to cover their individual asses (ie bankruptcy).  But when things don't quite go the way they want, on a individual basis, they want to throw the title of corporation out the window.  Eat cake much?

Lynn does submit that corporation do have some free-speech right; the right to advertise for example.  But when it comes to exercising religious activity not so much.

Q::How does the Religious Freedom Restoration Act figure into all this?

[Lynn's response did not seem very clear to me so I will be paraphrasing and clarifying were possible.]

The RFRA (1993), which is supported by a large number of groups including the ACLU, was brought into effect for the purpose of protecting religious INDIVIDUALS and ORGANIZATIONS against government interference with the practice of their faith.

The example Lynn used is as follows: You are a male, Muslim, (city paid) firefighter who wants to grow a beard. [For clarity, Muhammad wanted his Muslims to look different from infidel Christians and Jews, he ordered them to trim closely the mustache and grow the beard.  The beard is a dictate of religious adherence.]  The (city) fire department you are employed by has a "no facial hair" policy.  Under the RFRA you can bring a lawsuit if that law (or other "governmental" action) substantially burdens your religious practices.  It is then up to the government to demonstrate that its actions served a compelling interest and that there were no less restrictive ways to accomplish its goals.

Lynn continues by pointing out that during the years that the RFRA was being discussed no one ever thought that the RFRA applied to FOR PROFIT companies.  What this law implies is that "churches could make some decisions on their own, church autonomy, like where to put an alter in a building.  The government can't come in and say, 'put it on the right side' if you want it on the left side.  It is this kind of very modest protections for the right of people to worship as they choose.  That is what this statute is all about."

"There is not a shred of legislative history that suggests that this was for Hobby Lobby, for the Mennonite furniture company or for other groups of people who are out there agitating for why they should be exempted from the ACA's provision of insurance coverage of contraception for women employees."

"Some of these companies are huge.  Hobby Lobby employs thousands of women around the US and they will be dictators of the CONSCIENCE RIGHTS of these employees if they prevail with the SCOTUS."

Barry Lynn talks Hobby Lobby on Point of Inquiry (Pt 2)

Opening comments dealt with the overall implication for the separation of church/state (SOCAS), medical freedom, and peoples freedom to make their own medical decisions.

Lynn states that the primary concern is contraceptive coverage under the ACA; but the agenda of the Religious Right is the right to opt out of ANY federal or state law(s) they do not like because of actual or alleged violation of THEIR religious principles.

Q::So if Hobby Lobby (HL) prevails, would that open the door for a Jehovah Witness owned company to not have to insure blood transfusions, or a Christian Scientist owned company to not insure anything at all in terms of health care?

Lynn agrees that could be a possibility also pointing out that it could also affect Pharma companies. Consider the gelatin used to make tablets, it comes from pork or beef products, which makes them unusable based on the belief systems of many Muslims.

Lynn then poses a "rhetorical" question of sorts: If you can be exempt from an insurance law that is supposed to bring medical care to everyone, why not just ask to be exempt (as some of these groups have) from pay equity statutes, from civil rights laws (effecting lesbian and gay Americans)? There is no stopping this once you go down this slope of exemptions based on religious claims for FOR PROFIT COMPANIES.

Following the "for profit companies" line of thought,,,

Q::That's really the issue isn't it, that these are for profit, large employers? Actual religious organizations that employ people already have an exemption under the ACA, correct?

In his response, Lynn draws a comparison to the Citizens United (CU) case in which corporations, though fictional entities, were given broad free speech rights. "If you don't like free speech rights for companies, you certainly don't like a 'conscience coverage' for those same companies."

"What these folks really want is to create a kind of fictional CORPORATE CONSCIENCE. The next time I see (in the case of Hobby Lobby) a DIY gnome sitting next to me in a pew in church; or the next time I sit on a piece of wooden furniture (made by a Mennonite company) and it starts praying with me, then I'll say 'maybe it does have a conscience.

Barry Lynn talks Hobby Lobby on Point of Inquiry (Pt1)

On December 9th, Lindsay Beyerstein of Point of Inquiry engaged in a conversation with Barry Lynn, Executive Director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. The topic of conversation was the Hobby Lobby case that is currently being looked at by the SCOTUS. Lynn explains how Hobby Lobby's court challenge of the birth control proviso in Obamacare could open the door for Jehovah's Witness-owned companies to refuse to cover blood transfusions, or for Christian Scientist-owned companies to refuse to cover any medical care.

For the past few days I have been picking away at the interview.  Writing up a sort of transcript and filling in some gaps that some may not be aware of.  I am about half way through the 30 minute interview, and will be publishing information in multiple posts.
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A few items for clarification purposes: This case is also linked to/with: Autocam Corp. v. Sebelius AND Conestoga Wood Specialties Corp. v. Sebelius.

Autocam is Catholic owned, Conestoga is Mennonite owned. Both "lost" in their challenge in regards to Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) which prohibits the government from substantially burdening a PERSON'S exercise of religion. (Think Citizens United, corporations are people). The 6th and 3rd Circuit courts ruled that a for-profit company does not qualify as a “person” under RFRA and therefore cannot use it to challenge the HHS mandate. This contrasts with Hobby Lobby in which the 10th Circuit ruled in Hobby Lobby Stores v. Sebelius that for-profit businesses are protected by RFRA.

Prior to listening to this interview, a few conversations amongst friends came up in regards to some of the issues involved.  Robert Baty in a guest column featured on Forbes discusses "how the thinking behind the desire for conscience exceptions to Obamacare provisions compares to that behind the clergy housing allowance." In the article Baty connects some interesting dots and sums up his thoughts as follows:

Another possible analogy also comes to mind that might be worthy of notice; some of most vocal apologists for doing little or nothing with reference to the income tax free ministerial housing allowance might look and sound like some of the most vocal apologists for expanding the health care exemption to any organization, business or individual who utters the magic words “religious conscience”.

As we will see this "conscience exceptions" or "religious conscience" idea  is an issue that Lynn hammers homes in the interview using the term "corporate conscience:"

a business owner's claim that their consciences prevents them from, in this case, providing insurance coverage for their employees knowing that some of them will use the coverage to get birth control pills. 

This conscience claim would primarily be in regards to Autocam as it is a Catholic tenet/doctrinal issue based on Pope Paul VI Humane Vitae of 1968. But since most American Catholics have ignored this "mandate" I'm am unsure as to what influence this would have. Although there are 5 Catholic judges sitting on the SCOTUS. One must also take into consideration the "false" beliefs/claims that birth control pills are abortifactants.

[For disclosure, Robert Baty and I are "friends" on Facebook and discuss various issues.  His articles are included  because they are relevant to the issue at hand.]

A second issue that came to mind in discussions prior to publication of the interview:  Would it be wrong to call Hobby Lobby (ownership as well as corporate entity) a bit hypocritical in their stance considering a majority of their product (I have read as high as 98% of said product) comes from China where pregnancy termination is State sanctioned? Estimates of 300+ million abortions over the course of the past 20 years, but yet they are bitching about contraception!  A point echoed by a recent comment attached to the interview:

The most obvious line of questioning that should emerge in challenging the Hobby Lobby religious exemption should start with their purchase of goods for resale from China, an officially atheist state that can enforce its one child policy with abortion. With well over 90% of its resale goods imported from China - thus allowing the company to make significant enough profit to expand into the large corporation that it is - where is the fidelity to this religious tenet that they claim for an exemption to pay for certain types of contraception?

And finally, one very important point to keep in mind when considering this case (Hobby Lobby), only FOR PROFIT corporations are affected. Lynn makes a very important point concerning this early on the interview.